I haven’t wanted to criticize Mattias Desmet and the received theories of mass formation, because I’m just happy that folks are finally beginning to recognize what I’ve been arguing since the start: that the world indeed got swept up into mass hysteria.
I'd concur. I'd suggest the predisposition to mass formation psychosis is general levels of laziness (which leads to ignorance in the literal sense), low levels of critical thinking, and rapid dissemination of propaganda/narrative. The first two have been building for decades. The third is the official COVID narrative.
You can be as critical thinking as you want, but the question is where is your info coming from? Our societies are so large we can't truly trust anyone. So we either join the mass formation or we join the controlled opposition or we become a nobody.
Becoming a nobody (or realizing that has always been the case) of course is the ultimate goal according to Buddha, so I choose to see this unfortunate predicament as a blessing in disguise.
Peace Pilgrim's booklet, Steps to Inner Peace, has a vignette in which she managed to use her spiritual purity to scare off a child rapist merely by looking into his eyes.
A major achievement of both our host and Mattias is a general, or at least growing, recognition that a mass formation/psychosis is a real and present phenomenon. The concept is not new of course, but its revealing to see that we are in the biggest one in history.
It seems clear that totalitarians can either hijack or even found such occurrences; perhaps these ones are a particular subset of the wider social phenomenon that Mark is discussing.
Fascinating to see how this progresses, if I'm not first interred in a camp with no internet or something (Canada)
Pretty much what I have been thinking, but just like you, I've seen no reason to criticize the details. And I still think that there are much more important things to focus on for the moment.
Those 'precursor conditions' to mass formation describe an 'interstitial state' of mind conducive to dissolving the sense of personal identity and moral responsibility. The generalized anxiety and alienation Mattias Desmet describes would certainly fit the bill, but there are other equally effective routes. Ecstatic cult rituals can bring it about, for example, but maybe humanity is susceptible to spontaneous outbreaks simply from the presence of 'infected' individuals. Even boredom and laziness may be enough.
I agree with you, Mark, that there are many reasons why mass hysteria and mass delusions occur in society, and it does not necessarily happen based on the conditions brought by Mattias Desmet. Still, from what I understand, his analysis is directly linked to the idea of totalitarianism and how political agenda may induce this phenomenon or enhance it when these prerequisites are fulfilled or present in the society in a sufficient manner.
For example, we know from the past that this phenomenon can simply be induced by fear and superstitions without the need for any precursor conditions mentioned by Mattias. The only difference is, when that happens, delusions move in their own directions and vanish on their own over time. When political agenda takes advantage of this phenomenon, the crowd can be steered in a certain direction with a specific goal in mind. As long as the masses are controlled by propaganda and the media, they cannot be freed unless the system is at its end of a natural life cycle and is close to self-destruction.
What we are dealing with is the greatest betrayal of trust that has ever happened in human history. Short overview of what happened, how it happened, and possible directions where things might progress into.
I've found this book: “Being Wrong: Adventures in the Margins of Error” particularly useful in understanding why ALL people, even the most sanguine among us, tend to cling to erroneous beliefs beyond reason and often at great cost. It's a fascinating study of how powerfully we identify with our beliefs such that giving them up often triggers a major identity crisis. Our beliefs form our identity. Understanding this has helped me understand the human species more than any other book I've read.
I'm surprised anyone needed to read a book to understand this. It's pretty obvious if you even have a bit if self-awareness. But i assume the book must be more than just this pointing out the obvious?
Thanks for that. While it's obvious that mass hysteria is ongoing, I didn't find his premises convincing either, but didn't have a clue how to go about refuting them.
This explanation, that it's an emergent property of social networks, fails to account for how a proportion of the population do not get swept up in the mass formation.
I think Desmet's "well there's 30% who don't" without any supporting evidence or justification (that I've heard) is weak too.
Whether it's due to psychological temperament, IQ, access to technology, their career status, pre-existing cognitive priors, or other factors, there's a non trivial group of people who haven't believed the narrative from very early on.
Respectfully, I don't really buy this as an explanation. My personal theory would be "inoculation through previous eclectic belief," i.e. some other prior occasion in which you endorsed a belief not shared by your primary networks or communities. This is often dangerous-- as a young mom I was very active in an online Dem community until I was "canceled" for an unaccepted belief, which was extremely painful, and that was back in 2006. But if you can withstand it and you maintain your belief because you simply think it is correct, you are likely to have the strength to see other unpopular truths.
Admittedly, there are many people out there who see the light on one thing, and remain hoodwinked in so many other areas, which I do find frustrating. But I continue to think that a previous "wrongthink" belief is a great predictor of being able to see through a new mass hysteria.
Hypnosis may be little understood but it certainly exists. Being able to place thoughts into someones head by suggestion is hardly something to ignore, watching television puts people into a similar trance like state to hypnosis and this has been used to manipulate the masses (mostly into buying crap they don't need) for a long time.
Little is known/understood about many phenomena including viruses, but we don't dismiss them out of hand.
Interesting. I think social media, internet, smart phone, the global village, translates to the first truly global mass hysteria. Not possible pre-social media, smart phone. Have to look at the nature of this mass psychosis, virus mania. This is a problem that has been building over decades, getting worse and worse. More to say...
From my part of the world, NZ, TV and newspapers did the job on the masses. No conflicting messages received by those plugged in to just those old fashioned media.
It starts off with amygdala hijack, which then psychologically primes the brain for mass formation. In the amygdala hijack phase (about 3 months) people are zombies, alone and terrified. Emerging from this phase they develop mass formation as a coping mechanism. I also think Mattias is far too Freudian. We don't need that mumbo-jumbo in the discourse.
I already had a few questions and disagreements with what Mattias is saying, particularly when it comes to solutions and overcoming totalitarian regimes/tyranny.
I would much rather see you write out that thread in your Substack. I found your Betrayal article incredibly important, and think these thoughts deserve a more thorough treatment.
And, of course -- you would be correct! The addition would be "for a mass of people at a certain level of personal empathetic development." In this case, it would be people primarily at an Authoritarian level, who function largely on belief and are poorly grounded in their own brains regarding reality.
It's not necessarily a criticism to engage with someone's ideas and enhance or otherwise talk them through. Do you have the ability to arrange a call? Many things work themselves out through open debate in my experience.
Mattias focuses on mass formation in direct relation to totalitarianism as a political agenda, and indeed the four reasons make it easier for the madness of crowds phenomenon to emerge. From there, it is easier to narrate, direct and control the masses by the perpetrators. In contrast, Mark speaks in the much broader sense and is entirely correct, as madness might emerge simply through collective fear and superstition as it already happened many times in the past. The difference is, this kind of madness is not controlled by anyone, it just goes in random directions and holds itself there until it slowly disappears or burns itself out.
I had reservations about the four precursor conditions. Not that I dismiss them entirely, but that they are anything new and were particularly acute in 2019. I keep wondering, could so many have been swept along without social media. I was incredulous as I was one of only 2 people able to see it from March 2020 on my Facebook feed. I eventually quit in mid 2021 as I could no longer relate to any of my friends and family. They all may as well have joined the Moonies or become Scientologists.
Mass formation did not start in 2020. Just look at 9/11/2001. They have tested this out with false flags many times. Pearl Harbor etc. It is simply a natural result of a large society.
* We read in Revelation chapter 20 that “Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,” (which we can establish actually happened) and he “shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth."
* It continues: "Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about,” which is the the situation our peoples face today.
This is the same war that was foretold in Genesis 3:15.
* Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians chapter 10 that Christians should be ready “… to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.”
* And in Obadiah 18: “And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken."
We suffer the reign of the children of Esau today, as foretold.
I'd concur. I'd suggest the predisposition to mass formation psychosis is general levels of laziness (which leads to ignorance in the literal sense), low levels of critical thinking, and rapid dissemination of propaganda/narrative. The first two have been building for decades. The third is the official COVID narrative.
You can be as critical thinking as you want, but the question is where is your info coming from? Our societies are so large we can't truly trust anyone. So we either join the mass formation or we join the controlled opposition or we become a nobody.
Becoming a nobody (or realizing that has always been the case) of course is the ultimate goal according to Buddha, so I choose to see this unfortunate predicament as a blessing in disguise.
Peace Pilgrim's booklet, Steps to Inner Peace, has a vignette in which she managed to use her spiritual purity to scare off a child rapist merely by looking into his eyes.
Well said. I'm borrowing this quote.
Fluoridated water has certainly helped.
A major achievement of both our host and Mattias is a general, or at least growing, recognition that a mass formation/psychosis is a real and present phenomenon. The concept is not new of course, but its revealing to see that we are in the biggest one in history.
It seems clear that totalitarians can either hijack or even found such occurrences; perhaps these ones are a particular subset of the wider social phenomenon that Mark is discussing.
Fascinating to see how this progresses, if I'm not first interred in a camp with no internet or something (Canada)
Pretty much what I have been thinking, but just like you, I've seen no reason to criticize the details. And I still think that there are much more important things to focus on for the moment.
Yes, Mattias' 'precursor conditions' didn't strike a chord with me either; I forgot them straight away.
Agree, no rush to find fault with someone who has woken up many and made them now feel clever for being awake.
He did a good job of making the masses look like fools.
Those 'precursor conditions' to mass formation describe an 'interstitial state' of mind conducive to dissolving the sense of personal identity and moral responsibility. The generalized anxiety and alienation Mattias Desmet describes would certainly fit the bill, but there are other equally effective routes. Ecstatic cult rituals can bring it about, for example, but maybe humanity is susceptible to spontaneous outbreaks simply from the presence of 'infected' individuals. Even boredom and laziness may be enough.
I agree with you, Mark, that there are many reasons why mass hysteria and mass delusions occur in society, and it does not necessarily happen based on the conditions brought by Mattias Desmet. Still, from what I understand, his analysis is directly linked to the idea of totalitarianism and how political agenda may induce this phenomenon or enhance it when these prerequisites are fulfilled or present in the society in a sufficient manner.
For example, we know from the past that this phenomenon can simply be induced by fear and superstitions without the need for any precursor conditions mentioned by Mattias. The only difference is, when that happens, delusions move in their own directions and vanish on their own over time. When political agenda takes advantage of this phenomenon, the crowd can be steered in a certain direction with a specific goal in mind. As long as the masses are controlled by propaganda and the media, they cannot be freed unless the system is at its end of a natural life cycle and is close to self-destruction.
What we are dealing with is the greatest betrayal of trust that has ever happened in human history. Short overview of what happened, how it happened, and possible directions where things might progress into.
https://mellob33.substack.com/p/trust-and-betrayal-how-to-destroy
Your Substack article is good Mello.
I've found this book: “Being Wrong: Adventures in the Margins of Error” particularly useful in understanding why ALL people, even the most sanguine among us, tend to cling to erroneous beliefs beyond reason and often at great cost. It's a fascinating study of how powerfully we identify with our beliefs such that giving them up often triggers a major identity crisis. Our beliefs form our identity. Understanding this has helped me understand the human species more than any other book I've read.
Read/listen to it free today: EBook-"Being Wrong: Adventures in the Margin of Error" on Scribd. Check it out: https://www.scribd.com/book/163560786
Audiobook- "Being Wrong: Adventures in the Margin of Error" Check it out: https://www.scribd.com/audiobook/237598854
Check out Scribd - the membership for readers! Use my link to sign up and you'll get 60 days free: https://www.scribd.com/gatx/6fks6s
I'm surprised anyone needed to read a book to understand this. It's pretty obvious if you even have a bit if self-awareness. But i assume the book must be more than just this pointing out the obvious?
Thanks for that. While it's obvious that mass hysteria is ongoing, I didn't find his premises convincing either, but didn't have a clue how to go about refuting them.
This explanation, that it's an emergent property of social networks, fails to account for how a proportion of the population do not get swept up in the mass formation.
I think Desmet's "well there's 30% who don't" without any supporting evidence or justification (that I've heard) is weak too.
Whether it's due to psychological temperament, IQ, access to technology, their career status, pre-existing cognitive priors, or other factors, there's a non trivial group of people who haven't believed the narrative from very early on.
Whether you fall into the mass hysteria depends entirely on where you sat within the networks. https://www.getrevue.co/profile/markchangizi/issues/who-was-immune-to-covid-hysteria-not-scott-adams-341539
Respectfully, I don't really buy this as an explanation. My personal theory would be "inoculation through previous eclectic belief," i.e. some other prior occasion in which you endorsed a belief not shared by your primary networks or communities. This is often dangerous-- as a young mom I was very active in an online Dem community until I was "canceled" for an unaccepted belief, which was extremely painful, and that was back in 2006. But if you can withstand it and you maintain your belief because you simply think it is correct, you are likely to have the strength to see other unpopular truths.
Admittedly, there are many people out there who see the light on one thing, and remain hoodwinked in so many other areas, which I do find frustrating. But I continue to think that a previous "wrongthink" belief is a great predictor of being able to see through a new mass hysteria.
Mass formation is just another type of hypnosis, 10 percent of the population cannot be hypnotised. There lies a big part of the answer.
Any analogies to hypnosis I find unhelpful, as it is even less well understood!
Hypnosis may be little understood but it certainly exists. Being able to place thoughts into someones head by suggestion is hardly something to ignore, watching television puts people into a similar trance like state to hypnosis and this has been used to manipulate the masses (mostly into buying crap they don't need) for a long time.
Little is known/understood about many phenomena including viruses, but we don't dismiss them out of hand.
Interesting. I think social media, internet, smart phone, the global village, translates to the first truly global mass hysteria. Not possible pre-social media, smart phone. Have to look at the nature of this mass psychosis, virus mania. This is a problem that has been building over decades, getting worse and worse. More to say...
From my part of the world, NZ, TV and newspapers did the job on the masses. No conflicting messages received by those plugged in to just those old fashioned media.
It starts off with amygdala hijack, which then psychologically primes the brain for mass formation. In the amygdala hijack phase (about 3 months) people are zombies, alone and terrified. Emerging from this phase they develop mass formation as a coping mechanism. I also think Mattias is far too Freudian. We don't need that mumbo-jumbo in the discourse.
I already had a few questions and disagreements with what Mattias is saying, particularly when it comes to solutions and overcoming totalitarian regimes/tyranny.
https://twitter.com/B33Mello/status/1478758540688953345
I would much rather see you write out that thread in your Substack. I found your Betrayal article incredibly important, and think these thoughts deserve a more thorough treatment.
Agree, looking forward to your next Substack Mello.
There is often more than one way to solve a problem as complex as this one and I also feel Mattias solutions will not be that effective.
All ideas and suggestions need to be considered although ultimately I believe the Snake will eat itself.
And, of course -- you would be correct! The addition would be "for a mass of people at a certain level of personal empathetic development." In this case, it would be people primarily at an Authoritarian level, who function largely on belief and are poorly grounded in their own brains regarding reality.
That would explain why we didn’t all fall for it.
It's not necessarily a criticism to engage with someone's ideas and enhance or otherwise talk them through. Do you have the ability to arrange a call? Many things work themselves out through open debate in my experience.
I reached out to him on FB. Didn't get a reply, presumably because busy, distracted.
Mattias focuses on mass formation in direct relation to totalitarianism as a political agenda, and indeed the four reasons make it easier for the madness of crowds phenomenon to emerge. From there, it is easier to narrate, direct and control the masses by the perpetrators. In contrast, Mark speaks in the much broader sense and is entirely correct, as madness might emerge simply through collective fear and superstition as it already happened many times in the past. The difference is, this kind of madness is not controlled by anyone, it just goes in random directions and holds itself there until it slowly disappears or burns itself out.
I had reservations about the four precursor conditions. Not that I dismiss them entirely, but that they are anything new and were particularly acute in 2019. I keep wondering, could so many have been swept along without social media. I was incredulous as I was one of only 2 people able to see it from March 2020 on my Facebook feed. I eventually quit in mid 2021 as I could no longer relate to any of my friends and family. They all may as well have joined the Moonies or become Scientologists.
Mass formation did not start in 2020. Just look at 9/11/2001. They have tested this out with false flags many times. Pearl Harbor etc. It is simply a natural result of a large society.
It's not spontaneous or a 'network effect'. It's a very specific group of entities driving this bus.
And those people somehow forced millions to wear a mask in their car despite no one forcing them to wear a mask in their car?
* No, they deceived them.
* We read in Revelation chapter 20 that “Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,” (which we can establish actually happened) and he “shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth."
* It continues: "Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about,” which is the the situation our peoples face today.
This is the same war that was foretold in Genesis 3:15.
* Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians chapter 10 that Christians should be ready “… to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.”
* And in Obadiah 18: “And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken."
We suffer the reign of the children of Esau today, as foretold.
I think it was both driven and organic with many players "not letting a good crisis go to waste".